Podcast Transcript

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: What happens when spirituality is weaponized? Well, believe it or not, there's actually something called spiritual gaslighting. We hear about gaslighting all the time when it comes to relationships, but more often than not, there's a lot more spiritual gaslighting going on than you'd realize. I learned all about this when I moved to California, which was new. So, welcome to "Gloves Off After Dark." I'm your host, Dr. Kalpana Sundar, and with me is my trusty co-host, Joshua T. Berglan, the world's mayor. And we love talking about polarizing topics like this. And I love it because we come from different backgrounds, we have different views, but I think we share the same view on this one. So, "Gloves Off After Dark." We created this because we knew that there was a lot of stuff out there that people don't want to talk about. And you know what? There are things that just don't come out in the daytime. So, the truth sometimes comes out when the lights go off. So, that's what we're doing here. So, what comes to your mind, Josh, when I say spiritual gaslighting? What comes to your mind?

Joshua T. Berglan: Well, we do come a completely different background on this, because you know I spent some time as an evangelist, and I mean, so I have a lot of different examples to give. But the most challenging one for me, and of course, I was blinded by this because of how I was trained and raised in ministry, as far as when I was, not, I wasn't, let me be careful. I wasn't raised in ministry, but when my, when I started, when I turned my life around, when I started that process, I fell into, I was in a, the Word of Faith movement, the faith healing. Um, I had a supernatural experience that changed my life, and it's well documented. It's in my book, uh, "A Fight for Me and the Devil Inside Me." But, you know, that I had a supernatural experience, and that's ultimately what it took to change. And I, it's a crazy story. It would take an hour to tell it. I won't go into that. But I was, like, at a supernatural way of thinking. Like, I believed in the miraculous. I believed in miracles, the gifting, all those things. And the ministry that I fell into was all about that leg lengthening, laying hands, praying in tongues. And so, I've got a lot of content here. And before I say a word, I want to make this very clear: The last thing I will ever do is say something that would interrupt someone else's faith walk because it is a faith walk. And regardless of what your belief system is, it is a faith journey. Heck, waking up and going out your front door is a faith journey at this point. So, I'm not going to say, like, I have nothing bad to say about any religion, any belief system at all. I will share honestly, however, about my experiences. And I am very qualified to speak of my experiences because I lived them. I've been hurt by them. I know what it's like. I know the things that I did, thinking that I was doing right. I know the evil that I did, thinking it was right. So, I'm going to speak only from my, my experience, but I am not going to lash out at anyone's belief system at all. I want to make that clear. So, with that said, the one thing I will tell you is being raised in this supernatural, like, raised as in I was a baby, new in faith, new in my walk, new in my journey, new in my surrender journey. And so, I was susceptible to everything. I had a supernatural experience. So, of course, I believed that somebody could grow someone's legs. Of course, I believed, like, I could lay hands on somebody and they would fall out. I, I, I believed, I believed in all of that because it took something supernatural to turn my life around. And getting in ministry and allowing me to see behind the scenes of how certain things looked, I have a journalist mind. So, I would start to ask questions. I would start to question what I was being taught. And this is one of the things I want to talk about now. Prayer language. Praying in tongues. One of the air biggest areas of spiritual gaslighting I experienced was this.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: So, I'm sorry to hold what is praying in tongues? I don't even know what that is.

Joshua T. Berglan: So, take, okay. Well, so, the belief is that, so, there's being saved in the Christian faith. Okay. Like, when you, some people in the mega churches, they raise their hands. Some people go up front. Some people, you know, pray with somebody and surrender their life to Jesus. Mhm. Um, there's a prayer, but then there's another level to it they say. Okay. And that is baptism by fire. That is when you get baptized by the Holy Spirit. And typically, it is a pretty wild experience. And I'veseen it taught a lot of different ways. It's, there's a mix of deliverance, which is almost like an exorcism. But then there's also specific prayers that people pray over you. Again, it's done differently by a lot of different places. But in my experience, and I'd been through a few baptisms by fire. Um, and each experience was dramatically different. But the one that I really want to talk about was I was in a ministry class. I was being taught, you know, different things about ministry and how to, to, to, to be able to pray properly, pray for people, how to properly just steward an audience to be able to speak the Word of God. And you know, and I was being taught a lot of different lessons, and it was powerful stuff, powerful, powerful. A lot of focus on the spiritual world, the demonic, demons, angels, all that stuff. And it gets out there like it does. But in the, when you're there and you're surrounded by people that are just desperately, they've been broken, they've been, they've been prostitutes, they've been addicts, they've been abused, they've been used, and people are broken. And then they see this, they have this faith in the miracle and the belief in it. So, they're all in, right? Because they want to be saved. They want to, they want to be free from, trust me, as somebody that I, "Devil Inside Me," I wanted to be free from it. But the prayer language thing is when they do this baptism by fire, and I, I'll spare you all the details, but one of the things that they say is, once you have the baptism by fire, you can pray in tongues. Do you know what I said? No, you don't. You don't. You have no clue. Neither do I. Um, and but when you're told that you're, what, you're in these prayer language classes that they offer because, again, if you're going to have the baptism by fire, you need to learn how to pray in the Holy, praying in the Holy Spirit, but then you're going to be able to teach others. This is why you take the classes so you can teach others. But I kept saying, "I've been baptized by fire. My tongue's not wiggling. Where's the Holy Spirit?" "You just have to do it in faith." "Wait a second. What do you mean, 'do it in faith'? I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to move my tongue." "No, that's me doing that. That's not the Holy Spirit." "You have to do it in faith, and you're going to do it with the Holy Spirit." "Like, but that's not what you said. You said when I did this baptism by fire, when I did all these crazy confessions, when I did all this stuff, I was going to be free, and then the Holy Spirit could take over my body, and I would be just like Jesus, and I would have all the gifting, and I would be able to do this. But then now you're telling me I need to move my, my tongue in faith." And so, I argued, over and over, "You're just, you don't have big enough faith. Your faith is not big enough."

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: So, you, you got spiritually gaslighted when you were very young. For me, it didn't happen till I was much, much older. And, and I think it's really interesting because our contrast is quite significant. I was raised as Hindu. So, what you're talking about, I don't even really know much about these. I mean, I know generally about this, obviously, growing up in the US, but I was raised Hindu. So, I don't, you know, these things were always kind of foreign to me in many ways.

Joshua T. Berglan: It's totally different. I, I mean, there's so many examples to give. It's just, it's, and it's endless. That's one small thing, like the fake, the fake leg lengthening. Oh, yeah. We did things for all the stuff. And like, one thing that, that move, that church movement speaks a lot about is witchcraft. I kid you not. We took piles and trash bags of bills in a trash can in the auditorium and walked around it and prayed in tongues for an hour as it burned. And we were praying, believing all of our debt would be wiped away because somebody got a prophetic word that the head preacher did, got a prophetic word that if we did this in faith and circled around it. Looking back at it, because I know a lot of witches and warlocks and people like that, too, I'm going, it's the same thing they do. It's just a different name. It's, it's, it's the same thing. But more importantly, did the debt go away?

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: No.

Joshua T. Berglan: Oh, yeah. No, not for, not for anyone that was in that room that day. And I do, and that was five years ago, six years ago. And yeah, there, everyone I know is in the same situation they were before.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Wow. Well, so, here's the thing. I mean, I think some, a lot of this starts with the person wanting to be saved, right? There is the perfect target for all of these people, whether it's religious fanatics or spiritual healers or whatever. That's just really what I have seen because right there when you're in that situation where you're just, you feel like you need something outside of yourself to help you get to where you want to be. And that's how it started for me because I was going through some really dark places in my life and some real difficult things. And then I moved to California just feeling it was the right thing to do, but not really knowing. And, you know, and then there's all kinds of these, you know, spiritual healers, channelers, this, that and the other thing. I didn't really even know what these things were, to be honest with you, till I got to California. I got a real, uh, real education in it. And of course, naturally, because I was in that situation, I wanted to be saved, you know, I fell victim to a lot of these kind of things. And they're not cheap, you know, and they love it when you've got money because then they can really exploit the hell out of you and tell you all kinds of crap. And you know, then I started to realize that, you know what, maybe I really need to find this within myself. I mean, I don't disagree with spirituality or religion or any of that. I just disagree when it's exploited to be used against people.

Joshua T. Berglan: Yeah. And it, and it is. And that's, you know, part of the questions that started to get me in trouble in ministry. And this is what made me walk away, is I was doing all the things that I was asked to do. Get in the word. I mean, I still read the Bible. I, I, I do even and I, but I read parts of the Bible, too, that have been removed because the Gospel of Thomas, I think, is extraordinary. It's a book on self-mastery. And I don't believe Jesus was, I, I think believe Jesus taught, like, you know, like we need to take some personal responsibility and quit, instead of blaming the devil, like, you know, and like we need to take, we need to take accountability for our own actions. The Gospel of Thomas, if people can, like, actually spend time with it, that's where every self-mastery book on the planet was derived from. Interesting. I promise you it's, it's, and I also believe, but what that does is it takes the church out of it. It takes, it takes that, that part out because you don't need to go to church to connect to God. Is church a good thing? It absolutely can be for people. Yeah. It can be because community is everything. You want to be around, like, it's, I love, I celebrate differences, but when it comes to core belief system, which I actually don't really align with many people's beliefs at all. So, I'm kind of alone here. But, but for the most part, like, having community is good because you can share ideas and balance it. Like, that's what refining is. And refining is a beautiful thing. So, like, I, like, as far as religion and things like that go, like, I see its value. Like, without it, I would have never been able to give it, to get the structure and the boundaries to live within, to rehabilitate my life, to get away from the addictions that I was a part of. And now my faith is personal, and I keep it more to myself because the one thing I don't like about religion, this is across all religions, by the way. Everyone has their own interpretations of what the books that their, their religious book says. Everyone has their own interpretations of what it means. And then if you were to share that, like, we're told to share this publicly. Like, with Christianity, it's about evangelizing people. You, you're, you're to, to share your faith, and you're to try to bring people to church and things like that. There's a lot of that. And, and, and, and so you get into some really rough things with that because then you start telling people how to think and how to believe. And honestly, the only way, the only true connection or correction there is, I believe that comes from within. That comes from your discernment. That comes from, like, if I'm going down the wrong path and I start doing drugs again, and I start trying to justify it, like, "Hey, you know what? I can do it. I've got a couple days." Like, well, the God I serve loves me enough to go, "Yeah, that's, you're going to throw it all away, and I'm going to get a consequence for it." Like, I'm going to be corrected for it. Like, that's, that's with what I recognize with the relationship with God. But in religion, when you share things, now you're not only having to worry about condemnation from God, but now your peers because, right, you may not, you may not necessarily, the way they're reading something is different than the way you read it. And therefore, you're both walking it out in different ways, and there you are, judging each other. Like, "Yeah, you're not, you're not doing this right, you're not doing that right." There's a lot of that. Or, "That's not what the Bible says." And like, that is, that's what that does to people, is it wrecks your faith. And then, of course, all the fighting on social media about it, right? That's not attractive. That's not leading me to God. And that's what happens with this religion and thinking that we know what's better. But what I'velearned through walking away from ministry, and my faith is stronger now than it's ever been, but it's me and God. That's it.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: I actually think that's, so, here's the thing. I think, in different parts of our evolution, we may need different things, you know. So, when you're going through some tough patches and you're trying to find a sense of community to kind of keep you in the straight and narrow, when you may veer off and do something different, I could see that it's very, very useful. Now, let's, you know, whereas in contrary, there's me, who I didn't really veer off the path that much. You know, I mean, maybe I did some little silly things, but these, the things I did were basic normal things that every teenager does and all that. I never did anything. So, I, I mean, of course, my parents were, I was Satan in their eyes because I did things that they would never have done because they were so strict and Hindu. But I mean, when you look at reality, I didn't do anything. So, now I'm, you know, I have Hindu parents who are telling me that everything is terrible. And I was like, I don't know about that. You know, I'm going to be punished for everything. And I didn't really believe that God was that condemning. I just didn't think that God was condemning, that kind of God. I thought God was loving and that we were here because we were human beings and we made mistakes, and they were okay as long as we learned from them. And that was always my belief from, from a very, very young age. So, I don't know that I really, I mean, yes, I did a lot of the Hindu stuff because that's how I was raised, but I don't know that I ever really, I don't know that I really connected with it.

Joshua T. Berglan: Yeah. I, I don't connect to any of it now.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Well, yeah. I mean, I mean, I the way, but the way that the world presents it, because I see God in you.

Joshua T. Berglan: I know God is in me or whatever. I mean, again, I don't even like using that name. I feel like it's disrespectful at this point. But like, I see God in the animals and God in the trees. And like, I try to treat everyone as if I see God in them. And like, if, okay, well, if God's looking back at me, if I'm being a piece of shit, or I'm being rude, or I'm being nasty, or I'm lying, or I'm cheating, or I'm slandering, I'm doing, like, what am I doing? Like, I'm disrespecting the creation. And, and so that's how I see it now as far as my personal all the details, that's to myself. But I try to, regardless of religion, regardless of gender, and I don't care if you identify as a fish, I am going to treat you with respect and, and I'm going to show love for you because that's my heart. I don't need religion for that. Well, and but religion sometimes removes that from us by turning one of us us against each other, judging, finger-pointing. Oh, you didn't, you didn't follow the Word of God. Oh, my goodness. So, why are we judging now? Why, who, who gives us the right to judge other people? We don't. We're not supposed to. I mean, here's the thing. People, there's two, so, there's two major, major conflicting things in the Bible that happens what they say about immigrants. Because weapon, a verse will be weaponized about to say, "Hey, we're supposed to take the immigrants in." But then there's another verse that talks about how basically the immigrants are going to come and take everything from you, right? But then there's verses that talk about you should not judge. But then, but then there's other verses that kind of imply that you should. So, there's this war. And like, I see this, like, I watch my favorite platform ever, if social media is X. Well, before MySpace went a while because I like my musical profile anyway in my top friend list, that always became drama. Anyway, but X is this amazing display of people's opinions, which, and, and, and, and you can do anything there, right? For the most part. Mhm. Seeing the fighting that goes on in between people that share faith is scary to me. And that makes me go, this is not the God. Like, why are we wasting energy on this? But there's bigger things to fight about. There's people out there that are in need. Mhm. Why are we like, why, why are we fighting like this when we should be out serving, being the hands and feet of Jesus or of God or like, aren't we here to serve our fellow man? Then, okay, why are we fighting over Bible verses on social media? Like, that energy could be put somewhere, like, I don't know, helping somebody that's homeless or being, picking up the phone and being there to listen, hold space for someone. Oh, yeah. The need, like, instead of fighting over stuff that you can't prove. It's the dumbest thing ever. Like, it's fa, it's called faith for a reason. You, you faith, but it doesn't mean that it's, you know, for sure.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: And I think, I think the underlying implication of all that is that I'm somehow more healed than you or more religious or more something. That's, that's the whole prem, premise of all of this behavior. And I would say this is predominant. I would say whether it's spirituality, religions, it's not really matter. It's the, I'm more healed than you. I'm more religious than you. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It's all the same thing. And what that does is it really just starts to separate us instead of bringing us together. It's, it's really a, a way to separate one another. And I don't love that.

Joshua T. Berglan: Well, yeah. We're supposed to, we're called, as far as my region of faith, we're called to, to, to meet people where they're at and to judge. Like, here's, here's the thing. I mean, you know, my past, but one of the things that men, men, I'll just talk to men because women being lesbian is celebrated, but men that have gay tendencies are normally crucified. True. And, and, and it's, and it makes it very, very hard for men to be honest about who they are and what's going on. Therefore, they hide, then. And then when you hide and you do things in the shadows, you end up cheating, and all kinds of bad things happen. And so, instead of meeting people where we're at, we have people on social media, people on video, saying all gays are going to hell, saying stuff like that. I grew up hearing that, and I knew I was different. I'm not gay, but I'm different. Like, you can't put me in a box now. I, like, that's not my thing. You, there's no boxes for me. But growing up, hearing that, I'm like, so God hates me. God, like, and, and here's the thing. I'm having these thoughts, right? I've totally forgotten the fact that I've been molested multiple times by men and women. And maybe that has something to do with why I am the way that I am. And maybe it's not. But the fact is, I was very confused growing up, right? Because I had these things happen to me. Oh, by the way, that felt, it hurt, but felt good, too. And so, that's a confusing, and then, and now I'm hearing that thing that felt good and hurt, I'm going to hell for, even though I'm not the one that actually did it. Right. Right. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, those things. And so, then we make it, and you can't heal without being honest. So, we have all these gay people that go to church, and yet they live in, they're, they're being secretive about who they really are. And so, they're never going to heal or ever experience the true love of God or even the true love of other our fellow man because we're not being honest. They don't make it safe to be honest.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: That's a big thing. I think the truth needs to be safe. And I think that's part of the reason that we like doing this show because we like to tell the truth about everything is that's one value you and I very much share. You know, so it's like, you know, the people who are parading that they're healed and they're so perfect, well, they're really not. It's always those people that are doing the worst shit behind closed doors and then calling you out for something minuscule. Usually what they're doing is way worse than what they're criticizing you about. So basically, now they're just basking in the shadows acting like there's something they're not. And I mean, they're just things, there's so many wrong levels here. I, I can't even start.

Joshua T. Berglan: You know, me being honest about, of course, I labeled my sexuality back then, but even as an evangelist, I talked about having dissociative identity disorder. Why I was given a pulpit, I have no idea. But did, and I was also honest about my sexuality. And I, and like, but here's the thing. Regardless of what everyone thought about it, I was honest about it, and I never hid it. I wasn't active doing those things, but I was still honest about it. And here's what happened. By being able to be honest about it, the way that I was, because at that point I was way past what people cared about me. I'd already written a book that exposed all my stuff anyway. So, it didn't matter. But it allowed me to heal. It allowed me to grow. And you know what happened? I may still have the weird, crazy kinky desires that I had when I was doing a bunch of drugs and some of the other stuff. I may have that, but it doesn't have a hold on me anymore. Well, I don't, I don't, I have self-control. I can, I can be monogamous. I can be abstinent. I can do all those things now because I pulled the truth and put my, put myself in position to heal. Did it, did it happen overnight? No. But eventually it did. So, where now I could just be free of like, ah, this is me. I don't need to go do those things. But this is who I am.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: They're a part of you. They don't really define you. And your sexuality doesn't define you. What you do doesn't define you. Your choices, I don't even know if they really define you. I mean, they're those choices that you make in that moment based on who you were at the time. So, I don't think that they define you either. They define a version of you, just not the whole you. They don't define the version of you that could be a year from now. I'm not the same person I was last week. So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if we get away from our core idea. It's not our core, but, you know, I think there's some things that are just choices that we make at the time that wouldn't make. Sure. Like, in other words, if you were to, if you were to go to Club Space, well, you know what? You're in California now. Never mind.

Joshua T. Berglan: What's Club Space? I don't even know.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Yeah, there's, I don't even know a Club Space on the West Coast. Um, that's a bad example. Never mind. Well, if you were to get a, like, you because you're, I mean, you're relatively, I mean, you are, you're, you're, you're straight-laced compared to me anyway.

Joshua T. Berglan: Well, then that's what, that's what makes it so interesting because, and I don't feel any desire to be any different.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: But if you went off and tied one off in Cancun or like a bezer or something else for a weekend, that doesn't make you the party girl. That doesn't make you, you know what I mean? Like, that's a choice that you made, but that is not your identity. Right. And you know what? It's funny because when I was young, I actually chose to have that identity when it wasn't really me. It's taken me a very long time to figure out that that isn't even really me. It's just an identity I chose to have because it just felt, I don't know, fun, exciting, maybe different from what I am. So, I did a lot of drinking. I did a lot of things that I actually didn't, I don't know if I really enjoyed it as much as I thought I did. But that revelation only came to me maybe just a few years ago. D. Yeah, I, I, I can, I, I will absolutely admit this same thing for me because that for me, it's a desperate need to fit in. Um, yeah, I think, do what? I think it was probably the same for me because I don't really fit in with most people. And I think that's what makes our synergy fun, too, because we're so different, but on some levels, we're kind of very similar, which goes to show all of you listening out there that you can have massive differences in how your life plays out. But you can have some core similarities and choose to connect because I think that if you and I had met maybe 10, 15 years ago, we'd have been like, "Oh, we have nothing in common." I know I would have been like, "I don't have anything in common." I still would have liked you, though, because I've always been drawn to people that were different than me. It's when I start to hear an echo chamber, even if it's another person, I'm like, true. But I wasn't in that space 10 years ago. I wasn't in that space where I probably was as open to all these things. But now I'm like, ah, who cares?

Joshua T. Berglan: But we, we connect on our core principles, you know, true, honesty, being authentic, and just telling it like it is. Those are our core principles.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: And those are the things to me that matter more than your sexuality, what kind of life you did, whether you did drugs or not. I was just afraid of drugs. I was just really afraid. I, I mean, it's a healthy fear and a legitimate fear to have. I mean, it really, I was just really scared. I was like, I don't know about this cocaine stuff. It looks scary. What if I do this? Or I don't know. I was just scared.

Joshua T. Berglan: I'm so glad it's not a trigger anymore. Oh, my gosh. I couldn't evensmell the word. I couldn't even hear the word without getting triggered for so long. And wow. Or if I smelled it. But I finally got to this place because I started to go to all of my old places that normally would be triggers, and I started to reframe my triggers. And when I was working private security for some, you know, moguls, uh, when I was out in LA, you know, it was around cocaine and hookers, and I was around all this crazy stuff. And I mean, I can, I have to thank God for it that that craving went away because that was the hardest part of sobriety. It was getting rid of the craving. It wasn't necessarily not doing it. It was the, I need this.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: That was what scared me about drugs, the craving. And yeah, and being, uh, dependent on something to feel a certain way scared me. I mean, granted, I would drink and stuff, and I probably used it for, used alcohol for that, which isn't really a whole lot better. It's just alcohol is just more acceptable, socially acceptable. But it's a terrible drug. It's just as well as all of the others, in my opinion. Now it's more socially acceptable. But that was why I was scared. But then I realized later that I was actually developing that same stupid relationship with alcohol that I couldn't go out without drinking, and et cetera, et cetera. So, over the past couple of years, I've just been working on the fact that I don't really need, if I go out, doesn't mean I have to drink. I make that choice. If I want to, I will have one usually. If I don't want to, I won't. I have no problem with it now, either way. But it took a really long time to get there. And you know, when it comes to people who are very, again, I think here people can act holier than thou on this, too. You have the non-drinkers who are like, well, you know, I don't drink. I'm like, good, good for you, you know. And then there's the drinkers who are like, I like to have a good time, man. I'm partying. It's fun. And I could, I could stop drinking if I want to. I could stop drinking tomorrow if I want to. Oh, yeah. Then, then do it. And then I think that very few people are in this in-between weird gray zone. I don't know anybody else in this kind of zone that I'm in. I most of the time don't drink. Actually, I would say 80% of the time I do not drink. I could go out, I don't care. I don't need to have a drink. And then 20% of the time I do. I could be go with it, or I could go without it. Sometimes I realize I haven't had a drink in a couple of weeks, and I didn't even think about it. I mean, it's just whatever happens. I'm, I'm here with it. So, but very few people, I think, are like that. So, that just makes me an enigma because most people are in one side or the other. Oh, you don't drink? Are you an alcoholic? No. I just don't want to.

Joshua T. Berglan: I can't do anything two days in a row.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Oh, yeah. I can't either. That because even if it's dessert, if I have it two days in a row, it's going to be six months. Okay, hold on. I could definitely do dessert two days in a row.

Joshua T. Berglan: I, I can't do it. I can't do it. I because, so even, um, the health, I don't have one in here. So, the lollipops, the, a healthy sodas now. Uh huh. So, I don't drink Coke because I, like a crackhead, I'll get addicted to it. So, now that they have the poppies, I went and got poppies. Well, it's close enough to the Coke taste. So, now my brain, like, I have to fight it because I could have six in a, a day, and that's ridiculous.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Well, think about how all of this relates. It's like there's this kind of a desire to fit in. I mean, so all of this, I think, really ties into what we're talking about. Desire to fit in, maybe a little bit of a chemical surge of some sort when you fit in or when you get this surge of dopamine or whatever. I think this is why these things happen. You know, you feel like you belong. You feel like somebody sees you. Then I think when you get to the point where some of this is or more of this than should comes from outside of yourself, we've got a problem. Like, "Houston, we got a problem." I think, I don't know. That's just what I think because if you're sourced from within more, because I'm noticing the more and more I'm self-sourced and sourced from within, these things don't appeal to me as much as they used to.

Joshua T. Berglan: 100%.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: And I don't really know if I can explain how or why that is, but that's just what I've noticed.

Joshua T. Berglan: Well, if our body, and I look at again, going back to the comment of that I said about God being inside of us, right? I mean, I think it's a co-creation relationship.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: I agree. I, I agree.

Joshua T. Berglan: Like, so I do have I see the God in you and me, but I do know that we have a creator. And so the, like, that's my relationship. Like, that it doesn't I don't talk about it outside of that much more, but that's the relationship. And, and again, and even being in relationship with you or a the a dog or whatever, it's kind of the same thing. But I still pray. I still believe. And, you know, I, I, I still have my beliefs, but as far as this I'm being watched above, and I'm being punished. And I don't look at it that way at all. Even my even my understanding of good and evil is different because I've seen so even my I, I've done this myself in the name of in in in the name of what I believed I was doing good. I hurt people. Oh, yeah. I, I mean, again, like, the just because of the things that I was taught in in ministry. And I'm not blaming anyone because they were taught too. And, and and and and they're and they truly believe what they believe. So, this is why I'm not going to bash. And if that's enough to steer you from steer you from addiction or to to give you hope to fight for another day, like, I'm I'm not going to trash that. It's just when we start talking about miracles and we're saying, "I'm going to grow your leg." And you go in front of a whole church and you start there. I wish I had two shoes with me right now. And, and if you understood how they did that manipulation where they made it look like a leg was growing, it's a parlor trick. And there's a science behind all of it. And I started to discover this because in my quiet time, I'm reading the Word of God as as I was we were taught to do in my the faith. And I'm reading this and all of a sudden I'm getting these downloads. Like, the Garden of Eden is in the brain and the Bible is a metaphysical book. And I mean, and then like and then I started to ask other questions. Like, "Well, why why was that word changed? Why was why was this word added? Why were these sentences put in? And why were they taken out of the original text? Why were these books removed?" I started asking those questions. And when people started saying, "Joshua, stay in your lane." No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't tell someone like me that because then I'm going to start doing more research and I'm going to start asking more questions. And little by little, the the the veil of deception that had been over my eyes had started to be removed. And so the last four years since I've walked away, three years away, I've been through this unlearning process. However, as I've unlearned the indoctrination across every gamut you can imagine, my faith grew and grew and my relationship with the creator got stronger and stronger. And in that process, this is an important thing that I want to say. I learned and was able to learn the joy in suffering. Religion kept me in suffering. It kept me broken. The freedom started when I started to unlearn some of the BS and started to have a direct relationship with God. Into because here's the thing. When I became disabled with the trimmers, and even I'm doing pretty good today, but when I when I when I became disabled with the tremors, I, I would go to church. Everyone looked at me like I was a pariah. No one offered to pray for me. No one offered encouragement. And I'm not I'm not judging. I'm not judging that. Just people don't have an maybe they just didn't know what to say. And that's fair. That's okay. But I also remember crying out when I was disassociating, and I was pray begging for prayer, and I was scared because I was disassociating. And, and I here it is. I'm trying to be this man of God, but I keep switching into this very different person. I cried out for help. No one is there. You know, the only person the only thing that was there for me was was God. Yeah. And I only could hear it alone away from all the noise.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Well, because all of that can be distortion. It could be noise. It could be it can actually be distracting. You know, that's what I find. Sometimes I really need a lot of time by myself because it frees me from the distortion of the outside world, where then for me the veil gets very very thin and I can see things very very clearly. So even when it, you know, I want to make a point about the the veil because there's a lot of this stuff about love and light and all that stuff. And, you know, most of the people who you this is what I found. Most of the people who use those words love and light are lurking in lust and shadows. Whoa. They are they're talking love and light, but they're lurking in lust and shadows. So, I'm like, uh, hold on. Because most of the time, what I've had projected upon me by a lot of spiritual people is that, oh, I'm all of love and light. And I'm kind of making fun of them right now, but that's okay. But go ahead. There's too many gurus on social media for my taste because it makes me angry because then they're projecting their wounds upon me. And no, no, no, people, you can't talk love and light and project your wounds on me. I've got plenty of my own wounds, and I'm here for you to help me with those. And then I even had a recent experience which which you know about, but this was really interesting, and I have to say this because I think this was like the perfect embodiment of spirituality gone wrong. So, I had actually signed up with this this coach, and I worked with him for a very short period of time because he he was a great at selling his spirituality and his divinity and all the things that he knows because he had a very difficult past, and he healed from it. You and I'm not making I'm not really making fun of that part because he really did go through a lot of things. And my life looks like a freaking cakewalk compared to the things that you've been through and the things that he's been through. For sure. I recognize that. And I know my life has been, you know, my life has been hard, but really when I look at it, it was really easy in my childhood. I had two parents who cared for me and kept me safe. Um, they loved me. They didn't really do the best in understanding me, but they loved me and they kept me safe and they kept me they kept me on the right track. I mean, I'm luckier than most. I have to say I feel very very blessed. So, just judging from that, I felt like, wow, you know, this man is really, you know, going to help me just help me understand my own spirituality, you know, and he was getting channeled messages. And I thought, you know, again, I was outside of myself in the moment that I decided to work with him. So, I start working with him. Every session was about him. Every single session was him talking about him. And then I'm like, well, I'm spending money on this, and I'm listening to him talking. Maybe he should be paying me. And that got really confusing. And then, you know, and it was, you know, then I told him I didn't want to work with him anymore, and he got mad. And then came the angry spewage of vulgar lots of vulgar words about me. Just completely saying the nastiest things about me, shaming me for anything and everything he can think of. And then I thought to myself, how is this even possible? How did I not see this coming? So I think one thing I want, you know, I want our audience to know about is that this kind of stuff can happen to anybody. I don't think that I'm I'm like this victim kind of mentality person, but I was at a low point, which made me maybe more susceptible to this. So, you know, one one thing I want people to know is no matter what you do, and when you get involved with somebody that may be not the right fit, you know, even if you spent money on it, I mean, I I asked for my money back, and he said vulgar things. Yeah. He said vulgar things to me. Told me that I wasn't making any money, and I'm pathetic, and I'm a loser, and I'll never be anything. Um, shamed me for so many disgusting things. Meanwhile, you know, this man is gay, and he's had some very hard difficulties. And, and I never once I was always I don't care. But I thought, why am I not getting the same respect in return? So I think for what I want people to know from what I've experienced, you know, one of the big reasons I wanted to talk about because I don't want people to feel victimized by people like this. So even if you spent money, it sucks, and I did, and I'm not going to get it back, and it totally sucks. I totally feel that the universe will somehow repay me in one way or another. But the reality is get out. Get out because just because you spent money on it doesn't mean you have to keep going there.

Joshua T. Berglan: All right. I want to add something to this because I can't pretend I don't know who you're talking about because I can't because I have my own stories, and I'm not going to go into my stories, right? But what needs to happen is people need to start holding people accountable for their actions because there this this what you're saying I could tell you stories from five years ago about with other it's not just women. It's men too. Okay. And, and I'm not I don't again, way too much intimate knowledge about this to talk about it, right? Because I'm not trying to hurt anybody, but I will say this, doctor, you're being very, very nice by not holding him publicly accountable because someone needs to. There's enough people that have been hurt by him enough. Someone's got to hold him accountable. I've got stories, but he and maybe one day I will, but for right now...

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: My biggest goal for this episode was that so many people parade spirituality and channeling and all these things, and I've been taken advantage of by enough of these people. And here's the thing. I'm not really easily taken advantage of. So, what why it made me worry because I'm not really your poster child for take advantage of me. And yet somehow I was going through a very very difficult time in my life where I lost my mom. A big relationship broke down. I was having some, you know, career changes. It was like a real mess in my life. So I was at a very low point. So I think what I want people to know is that when you're at a low point in your life, and if you're looking for somebody to kind of help you out of it, be very, very discerning because a lot of things look differently when you're at that low point and you can get taken advantage of. Financially sucks, but more so those vulgar words that come out of people's mouth. And if they are able to say that to you, why how whatever whatever relationship you're in is going to be muddied with that that vile stuff is what I'm trying to say. So, you know, if I'd continued to work with him, maybe I wouldn't have found out, but again, it wasn't serving me. So, I just I just don't want people to get taken advantage of like this because there's a lot out there. And there are a lot of these people who have these get-rich overnight u stories and, oh, it was easy. One day I just woke up, and I manifested a mansion and all this BS. I'm kind of really disgusted by it. No, it doesn't work that way. If it happened like that, if it really happened that way, we would have a even more broken world than we have now because not everyone is financially they're not mentally ready. They're not spiritually ready to be able to handle wealth.

Joshua T. Berglan: Exactly. And I've been there. I know what that's like. I Because when you don't have the nervous system to handle true wealth, it doesn't stay. You may find it, and you may have it for a little while, but it's going to go away, you know. And it takes a real strength in your nervous system to hold big big wealth and big purpose.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: So, you know, it's just very easy to get sucked into all that crap we see on social media with all these people making it look amazing. They don't really tell you the whole truth. I'm not saying they don't have the things that they have, but I don't know how they necessarily got it, but life isn't that easy. I think that's what I want people to know.

Joshua T. Berglan: I want to add something. No one should ever pay for a spiritual guru. You have the creator. That's all you need. You don't need anybody else. Like, yeah, you the answers are always going to come within. If you get quiet enough and get rid of the shitty noise out there, the answers do come, right? And you and these the gurus, like, they may be channeling something, but you have no you have no proof what they're actually channeling is what they say they are. And having somebody I know the spiritual world very very well. I'm I'm very comfortable with demons and angels. I'm not fear them like other people. I have a completely under different understanding of that. And I have been possessed. Okay. So I want to make this clear. No one needs a spiritual guru, or at least one that they're paying for because the answers truly truly truly come within your communication with the creator. That's the only answers you need. If you need help in business or in math or social studies, or if you want to learn how to be a doctor or run a doctor practice, go to Dr. Sundar. Go to a professional that does that. But when it comes to your spirituality, that's a personal thing. You don't give it to other people. I'm sure as heck if you're paying for it, you're an idiot. If you're paying for psychics and mediums, why? It's a God-given gift. No one should be charging for their God-given gifts. You know what? Naturally, you know what? They should be teaching you to find your own if if if that's a thing, like, just so that you're not dependent on them. But what they do, you should not be paying for it. You should not be paying for it.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: I agree. Because, you know, the reality is most of us have psychic gifts. We just haven't really uh opened up to them. All of us are born with very special gifts. It's our fault if we don't use them, but we have them.

Joshua T. Berglan: Totally. Totally.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: And that's what I realized over time. I realized that I had just as much, if not more, than all the people that I was working with. And I'm like, what have I been doing this whole time? So, yeah, it's uh very interesting out there these days. And I think I just don't want people to get snafued. I want people to realize I think my take-home messages for what I wanted to get out there to everybody was number one, find it within yourself. I think you and I are in agreement on that, that it's all within you. Probably all of us have some sort of psychic gifts. If we get quiet enough and connect with ourselves enough, we will find out what they are, and they will get stronger over time. Any other big takeaways that you think we need to

Joshua T. Berglan: No, I think you covered them. I mean, that's a big one. Oh, and well, maybe that we all should be respectful of one another despite our opinions. We don't know what other people have been through. Even if you've been through the same journey, like, "Wow, I was sexually abused, too. Yes, I was homeless, too." It's still not the same story. It's still a completely different perspective.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Totally. Totally not the same perspective. And you know, and you said I was being too kind, but that I'll tell you why. Because I look at it with some grace. I was mad. Oh, trust me. When I got those vile comments spewed at me, over a hundred texts that degrading me, you know, every right to be I was very angry. But then I sort of realized that I felt sorry for this person. Ido. I feel I just had some grace to just realize that I don't know what he's been through and how that's still affecting him. So I I hope somehow there's retribution.

Joshua T. Berglan: I'm not listen. I'm not I'm I am not self-promoting here at all. But the problem with a lot of the coaches and the speakers, even preachers, "Oh, I used to be a sinner, and I was a drunk, and I was a." Those words don't mean anything. You can talk about on stage talking about being homeless. You were drug. You you you know you did coke off of a hooker's butt. Like whatever. You can tell those stories and talk about how broken you are. But here's the problem. We're all desensitized to things. And the truth is, if we're not getting to the root and talking about the roots of the issues and sharing that on stage, we're not really doing any good because what this does, the stage allows people to hide because you go in performer mode. You use NLP. You use big motion. Like I talk with my hands. So here I'm guilty. I mean, you're doing all this persuasive stuff. But when you A lot of the gurus that get on stage and they sell all the stuff from stage, that's all a mask for their own brokenness because if they can themselves up, it's like saying, "I have more I'm more anointed than you." This happens in the church. Yep. This is what happens. And because here's the thing. I truly believe that once we actually truly do the work to heal, yes, we want to share the message. Yes. But there's a different way of going about it because when we're truly in our hearts and sharing from that place of true understanding, yes, it doesn't come out in theatrics. It doesn't come out. And I know that I used to perform. I know I was a per I it was a performance. But the truth was past that performance. I was still a scared little boy hiding inside, and I was using my big persona to hide. It's much much different now as I have continued to heal. Yes, I have more healing to do. We all do. But the approach is much much different. It is much more humbling. To be truly broken. To be truly to truly learn a lesson is humbling.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: 100%. I think you hit on a very core point, and I want to just kind of just rephrase it because, you know, I agree with you. So many of these people have this very high performative energy. So actually you can actually recognize that because it is a lot of performance to hide a scared boy inside. And I, you know, I think at the end of the day, that's what most of us. I mean, I had a very big performative persona too. So I I say this because I've done that as well. And underneath it all was a scared, lonely, terrified little girl about being herself and that that was too much and nobody would actually like me. And then one day it I healed that, and I said, I'm going to be the too much that I am because I'm I'm a little extra. It's okay. And then everything changed, and my external world changed. I didn't have to have that performance because I could just be. So, I think that's where I felt that he deserved a little grace because underneath that is just a very scared person that maybe his mask is being exposed. Um, and and he has to deal with that, you know. So, I don't know. But I think that's that's that's a great place to land, you know. Let's let's all work on loving each other through our differences and our our our similarities and understanding each other. And maybe just let's not be violent and mean towards each other, and definitely let's not take advantage of each other.

Joshua T. Berglan: I want to add something really quick for, and this is kind of a weird thing to say, but for all the people that are scared of losing their jobs and all the things that are going to happen in the future, I will tell you this right now. The sooner you get comfortable with the truth, the sooner you're going to recognize the opportunity that you have because in a world full of robots in robot-run industries and AI-run industries and and technology taking so many jobs away, there's nothing not going to be anything available. So while you're trying to fit into the herd, all you're going to do is fit yourself into universal basic income and no opportunity in a prison. Freedom is truth. And to add to that, because we're in a creator's economy, a storytelling economy, your story is literally the fuel and the and the engine to bring all this stuff to life. That will be your business is storytelling. And the only way to separate yourself is the truth, your unique perspective of your truth, and sharing that with the world. Sharing that value. Entertaining people through it, too. Tapping into your God-given gifts and talents and being expressive that way. Literally, that is the blueprint for success in the new world that we're going into. And whether you want to believe me or not, I've got multiple books. We'll verify in 20 years of studies to prove it up. But the fact is another thing too, to take it even another step further with technology, we're going to have real-time telekinesis. There's going to be no secrets. So, you might as well get comfortable with the truth. Now, I'm telling you. I'm telling you right now that's a topic for a whole another comfortable with the truth because there's going to be no secrets.

Dr. Kalpana Sundar: Yeah, that's a whole another view. Well, thanks Josh, for joining me. This was a fun episode. Got we got all kinds of different topics covered here. Well everybody, we do this once a month. So stay tuned for November's episode of "Gloves Off After Dark."